HTML5 new format for FM

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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby Muris 9 » April 24th, 2018, 4:52 pm

agree with flash being a lot better than html.. still too many unfixed problems, this is just gonna make the games worse.. but well rip it :D

btw I know it seems weird but I feel the avatar a little bit different on html and find tricks/skills easier to do in html, at least in 1v1.. idk if that's only an impression or because I was inspired today, but that's how it seems to me
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby Levaldo » April 24th, 2018, 4:54 pm

Muris 9 wrote:agree with flash being a lot better than html.. still too many unfixed problems, this is just gonna make the games worse.. but well rip it :D

btw I know it seems weird but I feel the avatar a little bit different on html and find tricks/skills easier to do in html, at least in 1v1.. idk if that's only an impression or because I was inspired today, but that's how it seems to me


#DontKillTheGame
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby Nocke » April 24th, 2018, 4:57 pm

Herna wrote:Obviously also, as this was quite a 50/50 decision and there might be problems coming up with HTML5 we didnt know of yet,


50/50 decision? Last time I checked, if anything was over 50%, then it means that that option is in the majority, that it's not equal, that it's not the same (take Brexit for example lool, 51% against 49%, they still went through with it, since that 51% was the majority) -- and yes, I do believe Flash was in the majority throughout the whole entirety of that thread's lifetime and most likely still is, I haven't checked.

What was the point of that HTML vs Flash vote poll if the switch is gonna be decided by one admin, anyway? If it's still gonna be HTML, anyway? Just as a pre-text to say "Oh, we didn't want to simply change the format to HTML5 without telling anyone."? You can just say that, honestly.
"by one admin." A little birdie said that three individuals of the FM staff had an argument, and one was for HTML, the other two were for Flash. Not sure if they were being truthful, but they weren't any lowling either. I think it's a nice idea to put it in here regardless, just to see the reactions.
While I honestly do not mind playing on HTML, this coming from a person that simply detested HTML when it first was a thing until a few days ago, simply because I was forced to play on Chrome or Firefox as it does so say on the website, yes, choice of browser is a big thing (Sorry, you can only play using Chrome, Firefox, or Opera. Does anyone even use Opera?), I do think that this switch was rather rushed. Flash Haxball will die when Flash dies, right? So, that's in.. late 2020? Two years of time? 600+ days? (http://isflashdeadyet.com/) While an advantage for having HTML5 as the new format for FM could be us getting used to it before Flash dies so Flash players don't suddenly find themselves in a pit of having to get used to HTML5 in a few days because Flash just suddenly died. It's good to look into the future, but what about the present? Surely at least one more year of Flash wouldn't be terrible, considering that it's been that way for the past 20+ seasons, right?
Of course HTML5 is bound to have some sneaky bugs such as this VPS bug. If you were to go to the HTML5 Haxball right now, https://html5.haxball.com/ <--, you would notice that the title STILL says Haxball HTML5 Alpha. Why change from a stable version that is CONFIRMED to be working and has been for the past years, to a newer version that still is in alpha?
What's the problem with continuing with Flash for, if not until Flash dies and HTML becomes a bit more stable when it comes to VPS hosts and comes out of its Alpha stage, a couple more seasons?

It's not terrible either, having HTML5 as the new format for FM. It really isn't. I've quite enjoyed HTML5 as of late, I have to admit. But, when you think that it's still in Alpha, doesn't that change things? We can't have teams not being able to properly play their games because of sneaky bugs such as this one, and there's always the possibility for even more bugs in the future. HTML5 Haxball isn't even a year old.

Please do think long and hard before making such a huge decision. There's no going back once the league starts. People will expect to play HTML5, and there are some people that can play at their best when they play HTML5 but play worse when they play Flash. If we'll be forced to revert back to Flash mid-season, there's even the possibility that the league might just die out, or we'll have some dead games where most people play just for the sake of it, just to finish the season. Keep in mind that there are some people that are gonna play this season just because of HTML.
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby B4D4SS » April 24th, 2018, 4:59 pm

Muris 9 wrote:agree with flash being a lot better than html.. still too many unfixed problems, this is just gonna make the games worse.. but well rip it :D

btw I know it seems weird but I feel the avatar a little bit different on html and find tricks/skills easier to do in html, at least in 1v1.. idk if that's only an impression or because I was inspired today, but that's how it seems to me


Your not the only one who noticed

Left side = how HTML5 circle is shaped, Right side = how Flash circle is shaped

Image

Image

The game not only has problems with hosts, and more lag (but hey we get lower ping numbers so its fine right? rofl), but now when more people play HTML5 they're going to notice more and more how the gameplay isn't fun or hard anymore thanks to HTML5 and Flash having different gameplay (which is boring and worse in HTML5).
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby jovetic » April 24th, 2018, 5:14 pm

why do people write a fucking book about this?
lmao
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby Nocke » April 24th, 2018, 5:15 pm

jovetic wrote:why do people write a fucking book about this?


Why not?
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby OffSync » April 24th, 2018, 5:16 pm

B4D4SS wrote:HURDURRDURRDURRR

Left side = how HTML5 circle is shaped, Right side = how Flash circle is shaped

HURRDURRUDDURRRDURHUURRRRR



Forget this bullshit already. This is only a difference in how the game renders the image. It has no effect on gameplay. It did not change anything. This has nothing to do with the discussion.

lsco wrote:I hope you guys realise asap that it was a mistake and move back to flash..


Just buy a better laptop and stop convincing people the worst platform in the history of computing is better than the current standard accepted by every single member of the industry. Despite flash being obsolete already.
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby GQKU » April 24th, 2018, 5:17 pm

IM GETTING CANCER. ADMINS DO ME A FAVOUR AND CLOSE THIS TOPIC. ITS LIKE WENGERIN# WENGEROUT# DEBATE.
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby lsco » April 24th, 2018, 5:44 pm

OffSync wrote:
B4D4SS wrote:HURDURRDURRDURRR

Left side = how HTML5 circle is shaped, Right side = how Flash circle is shaped

HURRDURRUDDURRRDURHUURRRRR



Forget this bullshit already. This is only a difference in how the game renders the image. It has no effect on gameplay. It did not change anything. This has nothing to do with the discussion.

lsco wrote:I hope you guys realise asap that it was a mistake and move back to flash..


Just buy a better laptop and stop convincing people the worst platform in the history of computing is better than the current standard accepted by every single member of the industry. Despite flash being obsolete already.


Lol, im using my old pc not the laptop.. dont tell me what to do please.
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby jelly » April 24th, 2018, 5:47 pm

i totally agree with Nocke, all he said was true tbh. I also heard that some players gonna quit hax about this change
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby Flash9 » April 24th, 2018, 5:47 pm

Left side = B4D 4SS IQ
Right side = average human IQ

Image Image

I agree with my hungarian comrade he is the shit :thumbup:
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby OffSync » April 24th, 2018, 5:48 pm

lsco wrote:dont tell me what to do please.


Dont tell the league what to do then. Noone's opinion is free of criticism no matter how big of a snowflake one is.
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby Muris 9 » April 24th, 2018, 5:52 pm

OffSync wrote:
lsco wrote:dont tell me what to do please.


Dont tell the league what to do then. Noone's opinion is free of criticism no matter how big of a snowflake one is.


haven't you been doing that for the last months with html? :fp:
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby OffSync » April 24th, 2018, 5:54 pm

My point is, if you can tell us what to do then we can tell you aswell. No offense against anyone, its a two way road. Feel free to tell me where to put my opinion.
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby lsco » April 24th, 2018, 6:09 pm

OffSync wrote:
lsco wrote:dont tell me what to do please.


Dont tell the league what to do then. Noone's opinion is free of criticism no matter how big of a snowflake one is.


Who am i to tell anyone what to do? There are admins and as long as they dont change their decision im gonna play the next season
In html5 like everyone else.
I can say my opinion whether you like it or not.
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby Herna » April 24th, 2018, 6:14 pm

@Nocke
do you really think it makes any difference if two people more vote for flash or for HTML? the out come is random depending on who comes to vote for this and who doesnt.
The poll had a meaning, and that's to give the admins a picture of what the players prefer, and the only answer this can give is that around the half of the people prefer HTML5 right now and the half prefer Flash. On this the admins had to make a decision, doing the right thing nearly impossible, with half of the people being disappointed either way.

We tested HTML5 in the 3vs3 league and except of the fact, that the game is quite annoying to play with some lag there were no known bugs, or any other stuff that anyone wrote to the admins. This is what they made the decision so if people really are forced to test things out now and people notice its bad, I'm sure they would reconsider.

I don't know what your birds tell you but i was present when the admins discussed that and i can confirm that that isnt the truth, but it doesn't matter anyway. It's not like an admin poll would make any sense, when each player has his own opinion about this anyway.

It might say HTML5 alpha, but im sure basro confirmed that the version is kind of completed. Without people playing it the bugs wont be noticed and fixed also. When i look into that github also, there arent really any open bugs that were reported in the close past. I don't think there are "many sneaky bugs", and if we need someone to find and report them.

To teams disbanding: Even if they do, i doubt that they have to. If they still do, it's their choice only and in the same way people might play again because of the change. And even if they really can't find any way to play on HTML, its probably the same for both sides.

But I think all thats left to do now is testing out to make vps-hosts work, saviola reported the vpshost-thing to basro and will work on it, but i think there should be many vps-hosts that work anyway, or? In 3vs3 people were playing on those aswell. Maybe we just have to find ways to make it work. It's totally normal that there are a lot of problems when changing like this, but i doubt it would have been different in half a year, or a full year, or ever later, people have to get used to it, find ways to make things work as they did with Flash, and then see how it goes. And if it's really bad i doubt admins will stick to it anyway.

I am no admin and love Flash a lot more than HTML5, but i still think its the right decision and just like to write stuff!

btw, ive got no clue what hes talking about but can you try this out if you have these stupid lags?
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby OffSync » April 24th, 2018, 6:21 pm

lsco wrote:I can say my opinion whether you like it or not.


Honestly I like it. I care about your opinion and I am interested in making the league a better place.

Right now we should really look at what html5 can offer us instead of lobbying for dead weight. I did not criticise your opinion because I dislike it, I riticize your opinion because I find it redundant. You can solve your issues with html5 not the admins.

Herna, I think they are refering to a different lag. When you play in an abshost room there is a lag every 5 minutes or so, around 2000ms. It must be a hardware issue and abshost is a cloud machine service with distributed computing power. I doubt a proper VPS server has that same issue.
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby Tortogol » April 24th, 2018, 6:37 pm

Another problem is that the people who voted for html would still playing flash if the season was in flash, who voted flash most of people will not play html, like me. We had lot of fun cups where was a rule that said: if both agree you can play in html.. there wasn't even a game played in html.
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby Misaj » April 24th, 2018, 6:41 pm

now champions league starting and you gonna change this format. i think it's a wrong decision. you changed this format to html5 , now everyone will try to warm-up for html5 , so we can't find any fs for flash. but champions league still continues. i think this decision is really selfish. i think you should wait for the ends of the tournament. i think top 6 team players in the league still wanna play on flash.i know you are admins and you wanna do some good things for this forum , but when we gonna play the html5 we saw that is a alpha for now. me or older players thinks flash more good than html5. we are playing on this format for a 8 years , and actually i don't wanna change that format for now , at least ends of the hcl. good game for all players..
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Re: HTML5 new format for FM

Postby Nocke » April 24th, 2018, 7:01 pm

Herna wrote:We tested HTML5 in the 3vs3 league and except of the fact, that the game is quite annoying to play with some lag there were no known bugs, or any other stuff that anyone wrote to the admins. This is what they made the decision so if people really are forced to test things out now and people notice its bad, I'm sure they would reconsider.

Except most 3v3 games were played on normal hosts. No one would say 'lag xD' on a 3v3 game anyway.

Herna wrote:I don't know what your birds tell you but i was present when the admins discussed that and i can confirm that that isnt the truth, but it doesn't matter anyway. It's not like an admin poll would make any sense, when each player has his own opinion about this anyway.

If you were present, then can you please give us a list of which admins were present, and their opinions on HTML/Flash? Were the majority of the admins for HTML, or were they against HTML? I'm sure this wouldn't be too hard, I'd love to know.

Herna wrote:It might say HTML5 alpha, but im sure basro confirmed that the version is kind of completed. Without people playing it the bugs wont be noticed and fixed also. When i look into that github also, there arent really any open bugs that were reported in the close past. I don't think there are "many sneaky bugs", and if we need someone to find and report them.

"kind of completed." Says all, to be honest. Of course, every developer would consider their game to be 'kind of completed' when the game exits the alpha stage. Naturally, the 'beta' stage comes after the 'alpha' stage. It's quite a big leap from an alpha game to a 100% stable game, really.
Beta, named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet, is the software development phase following alpha. Software in the beta stage is also known as betaware.[3] Beta phase generally begins when the software is feature complete but likely to contain a number of known or unknown bugs.

Herna wrote:To teams disbanding: Even if they do, i doubt that they have to. If they still do, it's their choice only and in the same way people might play again because of the change. And even if they really can't find any way to play on HTML, its probably the same for both sides.

People can't play the same game they've been playing for years now? I find that hard to believe. It's just a preference, really. Some people really can't play on HTML, like Nub, who literally gets 1000 ping on HTML. gio disbanded Gladiators cause of HTML. Everyone can play on Flash. It's like not wanting to eat a vegetable because you don't like the taste of it -- you can eat it, you just don't like it. A preference. Of course no one has to disband their team just because some admins prefer HTML. Man up, play some more Flash for a couple of seasons, and then we'll switch to HTML when it becomes 100% stable and we can play on VPS hosts without random spikes from time to time and Basro is 100% sure there are no bugs.

Herna wrote:But I think all thats left to do now is testing out to make vps-hosts work, saviola reported the vpshost-thing to basro and will work on it, but i think there should be many vps-hosts that work anyway, or? In 3vs3 people were playing on those aswell. Maybe we just have to find ways to make it work. It's totally normal that there are a lot of problems when changing like this, but i doubt it would have been different in half a year, or a full year, or ever later, people have to get used to it, find ways to make things work as they did with Flash, and then see how it goes. And if it's really bad i doubt admins will stick to it anyway.

Like I've previously mentioned, of course no one is going to say 'lag xD' in a 3v3 game. It's a 3v3 game. And you can't really tell if they're lagging or not, since you tend to outright lag only if your first ping goes to shit, on HTML5. It seems like your 2nd ping matters a lot more on HTML5.

Herna wrote:I am no admin and love Flash a lot more than HTML5, but i still think its the right decision and just like to write stuff!

I feel the same way. But, isn't the switch a bit rushed?

Herna wrote:btw, ive got no clue what hes talking about but can you try this out if you have these stupid lags?
Image

He's explaining how ping lag works in Haxball. Ping is measured in ms, milliseconds.
"In HaxBall, your own player movement will fail to predict correctly if it takes more than ping/2 + 64msec for it to arrive at the host" -- I believe he's addressing the issue where you feel as if your player 'teleports' from one place to another if it takes more than, let's say your ping is 20 -- if it takes more than 20/2 + 64msec (20/2 = 10 + 64 = 74 ms, or 74msec), basically if you've got a ping that goes up and down constantly, I believe. That's why he says pings are not a problem as long as they're stable afterwards.
The /handicap command has been in haxball for so long. I don't think anyone's ever used it seriously, more as a joke. "ahahh im going afk xD" "/handicap 500".
He's suggesting to use /handicap 100 if you've an unstable ping. That's extremely unplayable in HTML5 Haxball. Go into a room and try it yourself. Could be another bug, as it actually makes me feel like I'm teleporting too. Normally, when you have a high but stable ping, you'd see other people teleporting, but not yourself. When you have an unstable ping, you could be the one teleporting too. I could be wrong, though, this is just how I see it. :shrug:

Also, why change the format to HTML5 while the Champions League is still Flash? Don't we all play Haxball to win it?
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