Rulebook changes.

[Nocke]

TL;DR - Lex retro non agit.

Recently, my team, TPP has played a league game against Seeders which we lost 2-1. I recorded the first half, but didn't save the second half because we lost - something I do most of the time as I just leave instantly. Their team did not have a rec of the second half, so Isco asked me to confirm and I said sure, because I honestly didn't mind, don't mind, and will not mind - we lost, so be it.

I am not writing this because of the change of the result, but because of the way the result was changed. The match was posted as a 2-1 win by Isco, but it was then announced and published by socrates as a defloss for both teams. After the implementation of a rule, the result was changed to 2-1.

There has been a recent change in the rulebook - a change that was done AFTER the game was played and AFTER the result was announced.

old: 1.23 A replay of every game must be supplied for the result to count.
Failure to supply a replay will result in the match being valued as deflose for both teams.

new: 1.23 A replay of every game must be supplied for the result to count.
If nobody can supply a replay but both team captains approve, the result still can stand. In this case no goals or assist will be credited for players. Otherwise the match will be valued deflose for both teams.

The administration can add, change or remove rules whenever they please. Most of the time this will lead to improvements and just actions, sure. I am honestly glad that it was finally added as it is good for every team in this league.

I will give two examples, a real life example and a haxball example.

Let's say weed is illegal right now. I get caught and I go to prison. Two years later they legalise weed but I will stay in prison obviously, they're not gonna make me go free.
Let's say the amount of wildcards that a team can use per season is 6. If a team has used all of their available wildcards, which is 6, and there's a rulebook change during the same season that states that every team is now limited to just 5 wildcards per season, does that mean that they get a defloss now?

Again, I am not surprised to see that we lost, because we did. I am surprised to see that they can go so low. This kind of thing has been done before, it happened just now, and it will happen again in the future. It must not happen this way, because it is simply unjust.

In conclusion, an action should not be affected by a rule that was implemented after the said action. Because that's not how it works.

[P4ER]

But this rule was changed because of that game not randomly after..

I'll give you an example :
A guy sent into prison after posting a goal on 'necro', but the judge saw it wasn't right, so he changed the rule that posting clips on 'necro' is allowed and the guy went out of prison because it became legal because of his case.. that's how IRL works.

Also it doesn't make any sense to confirm Seeders won to help them getting the win and complaining after why they updated it like they did, next time don't confirm it.. you contradict yourself.

[LaggerMet]

While I generally agree with the concept of a rule change affecting only incidents that occur after the change, I think it shouldn't be the case this time.
The goal of the rules in this league is to have the most competitive, fair, professional and fun league we can ever have.
And in this case, the most competitive, fair, professional and fun thing to do is to give them the win.

[socrates]

There has to be an element of just using common sense to give the outcome which is fairest. I have no problems with admins differing from the rulebook if it makes the league fairer. They haven't differed from it to do anything unjust. I only wish they had done this in the past too but just because they made a wrong decision (imo) in the past doesn't mean they should keep doing that.

If you approved the result and wanted it to be given as a win to seeders then I don't see why you are protesting now.

[Nocke]

But this rule was changed because of that game not randomly after, don't be necro please.. I'm sure he had an effect on this thread, because it makes no sense that.

I'll give you an example :
A guy sent into prison after posting a goal on 'necro', but the judge saw it wasn't right, so he changed the rule that posting clips on 'necro' is allowed and the guy went out of prison because it became legal because of his case.. that's how IRL works.

Also it doesn't make any sense to confirm Seeders won to help them getting the win and complaining after why they updated it like they did, next time don't confirm it.. you contradict yourself.

Read the whole thing before you reply to it, please. I wrote that I did not make this thread because they were given the win, we lost so obviously they should, but because of the way it was handled.

While I generally agree with the concept of a rule change affecting only incidents that occur after the change, I think it shouldn't be the case this time.
The goal of the rules in this league is to have the most competitive, fair, professional and fun league we can ever have.
And in this case, the most competitive, fair, professional and fun thing to do is to give them the win.

A rule is meant to affect every case the moment it's implemented, with no exceptions. Why shouldn't it be the case this time, isn't that the way a rule works? I agree with you when you say that the league should be competitive, fair, professional and fun - it is really not professional to handle this the way they did.

There has to be an element of just using common sense to give the outcome which is fairest. I have no problems with admins differing from the rulebook if it makes the league fairer. They haven't differed from it to do anything unjust. I only wish they had done this in the past too but just because they made a wrong decision (imo) in the past doesn't mean they should keep doing that.

If you approved the result and wanted it to be given as a win to seeders then I don't see why you are protesting now.

Again, read the whole thing before you decide to reply, please. I am not protesting against the result. so Isco asked me to confirm and I said sure, because I honestly didn't mind, don't mind, and will not mind - we lost, so be it.

You have no problems with admins differing from the rulebook? That's ridiculous. Isn't that the whole point of the rulebook though? To enforce rules? To follow it and stick by it?
This league should be way more professional by now, especially after 24 long seasons. I am certain that the admins would have a talk between themselves before announcing and publishing a certain result.

[LaggerMet]

I don't get it, you think that penalizing a team for 3 points for forgetting to save a record, in a league that is supposed to be competitive and fun (without real prizes) because the rules said so, is good for the league even though everyone agrees that the rules were dumb? Maybe I would agree if this was some serious business but we all know that our only goal here is to enjoy and see who plays the best, and in that case I see no reason to abide an obviously bad rule...

[Nocke]

I don't get it, you think that penalizing a team for 3 points for forgetting to save a record, in a league that is supposed to be competitive and fun (without real prizes) because the rules said so, is good for the league even though everyone agrees that the rules were dumb? Maybe I would agree if this was some serious business but we all know that our only goal here is to enjoy and see who plays the best, and in that case I see no reason to abide an obviously bad rule...

The 'obviously bad rule' was a rule that was set by the admins themselves, in the rulebook that they should follow and stick by, however that is not what caused this. It was poor communication between the admins, as they should have a talk between themselves first before deciding on a certain result. A match should not have three different results. This could've been handled way better.

[jasko]

I get your point, but I'm sharing the opinion of some of the guys that commented before me, I think we should just use common sense in this specific case, the game was played, you confirmed that you lost, and it was a stupid rule and about time a change was made. We cannot be bureaucratic all the time, especially when it contradicts fairness (like it does now imho).

[Twigg]

TL;DR - Lex retro non agit.

Recently, my team, TPP has played a league game against Seeders which we lost 2-1. I recorded the first half, but didn't save the second half because we lost - something I do most of the time as I just leave instantly. Their team did not have a rec of the second half, so Isco asked me to confirm and I said sure, because I honestly didn't mind, don't mind, and will not mind - we lost, so be it.

I am not writing this because of the change of the result, but because of the way the result was changed. The match was posted as a 2-1 win by Isco, but it was then announced and published by socrates as a defloss for both teams. After the implementation of a rule, the result was changed to 2-1.

There has been a recent change in the rulebook - a change that was done AFTER the game was played and AFTER the result was announced.

old: 1.23 A replay of every game must be supplied for the result to count.
Failure to supply a replay will result in the match being valued as deflose for both teams.

new: 1.23 A replay of every game must be supplied for the result to count.
If nobody can supply a replay but both team captains approve, the result still can stand. In this case no goals or assist will be credited for players. Otherwise the match will be valued deflose for both teams.

The administration can add, change or remove rules whenever they please. Most of the time this will lead to improvements and just actions, sure. I am honestly glad that it was finally added as it is good for every team in this league.

I will give two examples, a real life example and a haxball example.

Let's say weed is illegal right now. I get caught and I go to prison. Two years later they legalise weed but I will stay in prison obviously, they're not gonna make me go free.
Let's say the amount of wildcards that a team can use per season is 6. If a team has used all of their available wildcards, which is 6, and there's a rulebook change during the same season that states that every team is now limited to just 5 wildcards per season, does that mean that they get a defloss now?

So what exactly is the issue with retroactively changing a result and amending a rule, if the intent is to make things fair and bring everything back into alignment? From what I've read, it seems that the admins noticed a mistake and decided to address it to keep everything fair.

Again, I am not surprised to see that we lost, because we did. I am surprised to see that they can go so low. This kind of thing has been done before, it happened just now, and it will happen again in the future. It must not happen this way, because it is simply unjust.

In conclusion, an action should not be affected by a rule that was implemented after the said action. Because that's not how it works.

As soc said, there's an element of common sense that has to be taken into account with decisions like these, and with that in mind I doubt any disastrous mistakes are going to occur in the future and certainly if they do they will be undone, and I don't think any dubious goings-on are going to occur with this retroactivity either. So what negative impacts are you expecting from it?

[Pringles]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aZNcFiAWVQ Just passed by to let everyone know about this good informative video made by Nocke!
And to keep it on-topic: It was the most fair decision tbh.

[Nocke]

So what exactly is the issue with retroactively changing a result and amending a rule, if the intent is to make things fair and bring everything back into alignment? From what I've read, it seems that the admins noticed a mistake and decided to address it to keep everything fair.

It bothers me because stuff like this shouldn't even happen in the first place. Either make it so that if you change a rule midseason then it's going to affect the season after and the ones after it only and not the current season as well, or it affects the current season and the seasons after. It would be fair to have only one of these, and not both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aZNcFiAWVQ Just passed by to let everyone know about this good informative video made by Nocke!
And to keep it on-topic: It was the most fair decision tbh.

nice meme

[lsco]

I'm sorry guys i'm just not buying it.
I really made a mistake by getting confused with changing hosts and everything... it made me lose those recs.
No doubt it's on me...
The thing is TPP already confirmed the result, I wouldn't ask for a W if they wouldn't confirm it.
This W is ours, none of you captains who are against this rule change would accept it.
I really appreciate the fact u confirmed the result and the fair play, we both know that if it was the opposite i would do the same thing.
And im even more happy that admins used their common sense and gave us the points, if we would lose championship cause of such a thing it was a real shame.
I honestly think all of u guys, especially those that are playing on FeedMe should chase the Justice and fair play more than anything, and those of you that complain about it well idk...? I wonder what would you say if it was your team, and not Seeders.

[Mish]

basically isco

[saviola]

Well, I can understand your point. This is definitely not professional. I've often been frustrated with the communication and indecisiveness of the admins.

This rule should have been removed / changed long ago, and it would have been professional to implement the change at season half or even for next season.

But this league is not run professionally. I don't mean that negatively, that's just how it is: the admins run this league in their free time, they earn their money doing completely different things (and those are the things they are supposed to be professional about).

They make mistakes, and I think it's fine to bring up those mistakes so they can possibly avoid them in the future, but this is not one of them imo.

So while I understand and agree with your point – I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.

[SuarezN7]

Oh so nocke now cares about FP

[Yannex]

first of all nocke you contradict yourself which is dumb
now god knows i dont like the admins here and how they run this league and i insulted them etc.. and they still change the rule not cause of my insults (which i admit i probably went too far) but cause it was the fairest thing to do.

(this part is my message for the admin team..)

i'm not saying i like the admins i still dont.. only because they run this league "professionally". the way i see league should be run is not professionally but fair...
because this isnt IRL... get out of your bubble for god sake.. we all play this for fun at the end of the day being professional on something that isnt fair doesnt make the game fun which is the goal in this league... thats the reason i dont like how hannes and some of the admins run the league or any league that runs like this... so stop get out of your IRL bubble and understand its just for fun so stop being professional and start being fair... you dont get any money for doing it you dont need to be professional this isnt IRL...

now for you nocke, i can bet all my "IRL" (since you think its IRL...) money and say that if this was the opposite way and we would lose and confirm it bla bla.. you would want the admins to be fair and give you the win SIMPLY FOR THE REASON WE CONFIRMED YOU WON.......... SIMPLY CAUSE OF THAT
now ofc you can be unfair and could have said your dont confirm, we wouldnt be able to do anything about it and gg.. but you decided to be fair which i respect (a little... you're still retarded) so basically this whole post is pointless and you know it...

[Nocke]

first of all nocke you contradict yourself which is dumb
now god knows i dont like the admins here and how they run this league and i insulted them etc.. and they still change the rule not cause of my insults (which i admit i probably went too far) but cause it was the fairest thing to do.

(this part is my message for the admin team..)

i'm not saying i like the admins i still dont.. only because they run this league "professionally". the way i see league should be run is not professionally but fair...
because this isnt IRL... get out of your bubble for god sake.. we all play this for fun at the end of the day being professional on something that isnt fair doesnt make the game fun which is the goal in this league... thats the reason i dont like how hannes and some of the admins run the league or any league that runs like this... so stop get out of your IRL bubble and understand its just for fun so stop being professional and start being fair... you dont get any money for doing it you dont need to be professional this isnt IRL...

now for you nocke, i can bet all my "IRL" (since you think its IRL...) money and say that if this was the opposite way and we would lose and confirm it bla bla.. you would want the admins to be fair and give you the win SIMPLY FOR THE REASON WE CONFIRMED YOU WON.......... SIMPLY CAUSE OF THAT
now ofc you can be unfair and could have said your dont confirm, we wouldnt be able to do anything about it and gg.. but you decided to be fair which i respect (a little... you're still retarded) so basically this whole post is pointless and you know it...

How do I contradict myself? Tell me.

Of course if it was the opposite way I would do the same thing, I even spoke to Isco about it. Do you read whatever you want to read?
so Isco asked me to confirm and I said sure, because I honestly didn't mind, don't mind, and will not mind - we lost, so be it.
This isn't about what they did, but how they did it. Calling me dumb and retarded won't make your arguments any better.

[jelly]

Yannex which part of ''I honestly didn't mind, don't mind, and will not mind - we lost, so be it.'' you did not understand?

He is not about the lost or the opposite thing or whatever you want to think of. He is talking about how the rule changed after such thing as this happened, it happened before too, but nobody talked about it and the rule haven't changed.

And how can you call someone retarded when you don't know him, this community is broken.

[ATuntija]

[Yannex]

Yannex which part of ''I honestly didn't mind, don't mind, and will not mind - we lost, so be it.'' you did not understand?

He is not about the lost or the opposite thing or whatever you want to think of. He is talking about how the rule changed after such thing as this happened, it happened before too, but nobody talked about it and the rule haven't changed.

And how can you call someone retarded when you don't know him, this community is broken.

oh i call him retarded for many other reasons no just this one and he knows it... i know him trust me
so dont enter an argument like a *retard* when you know nothing about it...

for you and nocke now like i said this topic is pointless if its not about the lose\win so it clearly is...
and maybe you both dont want to read ofc i wrote it to admins but for you aswell now.. running league professionally destroys it and the fun about playing a league
at the end of the day we all want to play fair and keep the fun, do you agree with me on that? if you are than this topic is pointless and like i said ofc its about the lose\win