Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby Muris 9 » February 21st, 2018, 10:21 pm

After a long break, Winter Cup is finally back to FM!! This time it will be a "Hidden Names Cup". You probably know what it is about, but let me explain it again: it consists in choosing an existing football team from European Football Leagues (for example Man Utd, Liverpool, Real Madrid etc.) and playing with the names of those players+avatars(current numbers) as your in-game nicknames. Of course you have to edit your flag, and put it the same nationality of the player you choose to be during the cup, so that no one knows who you really are.

The whole idea behind this funcup is so that no one knows who their opponents are so please try to follow these rules:
  • Don't tell anyone or give any clues to which team/player you are.
  • Change your avatar so that you won't be recognised
  • Change your flag to the nationality of the player you are playing as.
  • Don't speak in the game chat in a language that will reveal your teams identity.
    For the organization in the cup, you only communicate with the Cup Supporters(muris + others will be added later), which means it remains secret which team plays as who untill the cup has ended. We will announce which team played as who after the final game. (Seriously don't reveal it to anyone, this will screw up the whole idea behind this cup :()

    Don't sign your team here!
    Please send me a direct message either on teamspeak or forum private message with which team you want to be, and if it is already taken I'll tell you asap. I'll keep the list of teams updated in our ts channel, so you will be aware of which teams you can pick.

    Name:
    FM Season 21 Hidden Names Winter Cup

    Date:
    Thursday 1st March, 7PM GMT (8 PM CET)
    All finished on one day!!!

    Check-In:
    Deadline Thursday 1st March 6:40 PM GMT (7.40 PM CET)

    Squad:
    FM Teams: Squad from FM site
    Other Teams: These Teams will have to have a squad of at least 6 persons.
    Players can be added at any time. A Player who played before in a Team and his Team is already disqualified, isn't allowed to take part at the tournament anymore.

    Allowed Participants:
    FM Teams (+6 players preferably)
    FM New Teams (+6 players preferably)
    Teams from other Leagues (+6 players preferably)
    Randomly created ones (+6 players preferably)

    Schedule / Seeding:
    Fixtures gonna be released when the Fun Cup starts.

    Format:
    Groupstage followed by Finalstage
    We will try to have groups with 4 teams in each.

    Mode: 4on4
    Stadium: Big
    Goal Limit: None
    Time Limit: 2x7 (2x10 Final)
    Overtime: None (1x5 mins with Goal limit 1 in Final Stages)
    Substitutions: After a goal, after half time or both captains agree while game is paused

    Fixture 1: 20:00 - 20:30 CET
    Fixture 2: 20:30 - 21:00 CET
    Fixture 3: 21:00 - 21:30 CET

    Rewards:
    TAG on TS
    Award on FM site
    Global Fame

    Supporters:
    muris
    +
    +
    +

    • The check-in begins NOW. Deadline for the check-in is Thusday 1st March.
    • At Fun Cup day each captain of every team will have to deliver their results to one of the listed Organisers / Supporters above.
    • Please record every game.. some people still cheat in funcups :fp:
    • Fun Cup organisators will contact the Team Captains and will deliver a roomlink. Final game can be streamed.
    • All players are allowed to take part BUT banned players are excluded from the Cup.
    • All Fixtures must be completed in one day


Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,

GROUP A - > HANNES
GROUP B+C -> MURIS
GROUP D - > WHITEE

http://challonge.com/hiddennameswintercup

Hidden Names Winter Cup tonight at 20 CET!! INFO HERE

Teams already picked: 18/??
Real Madrid
Barcelona
Marseille
Juventus
Bayern München
Napoli
Manchester City
Heracles Almelo
Manchester United
Hamburger SV
Chelsea
AS Roma
FC Steaua Bucurestii
Atletico Madrid
AC Milan
Tottenham Hotspurs
Paris Saint Germain
Borussia Dortmund
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby jasko » March 11th, 2018, 4:17 pm

So the "title" was given to TG after IFK understandably didn't want to play the game after a week or even more

Let's see some of the main ideas behind the funcup :
[*] Don't tell anyone or give any clues to which team/player you are.
[*] Don't speak in the game chat in a language that will reveal your teams identity.
[*] All finished on one day!!!

So every single one was broken either by organizers or TG themselves (we knew it's them even in groupstage). We (IFK) played all the matches, reached the final, never discovered our identity, (hence why no one knew who they play against) started that final game as well on the same day and then suddenly their player had to leave and we couldn't play anymore so we decided to wait until midnight and left after that and on all of our surprise the organizers (idk exactly who did this) discovered all our identities and demanded us to play on another day, while everyone knew who the 2 teams are and while the day to play the game was far gone, so it goes against all of the main points of the funcup and we understandably refused to play, just to find out later that they were titled winners of the cup... So YOU tell me who is crazy here..

Now.. None of us really care for the winner tag, but if you ask me this is some bullshit and these core ideas of the cup shouldn't be neglected..
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby Muris 9 » March 11th, 2018, 4:23 pm

1 - one night cup doesn't mean that at 00.00 the cup must be over and defwin given to IFK if the cup was not over yet.
2 - I didn't say anyone's identity, if falk and his team can't keep their mouth shut for 15 minutes and must let everyone discover which their team is, then that is not my problem/fault
3 - I've asked you to play at least 5 times, not only you but also your team mates, and you've refused every single time.. so don't complain now :)
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby anglo » March 11th, 2018, 7:27 pm

First of all I would like to say this is not a personal attack on anyone, I appreciate that the admins are spending so much time making haxball a better game. It is rather a text about the decision itself, no matter who made it.

As the objective person I find this decision very interesting from several angles. There is a clear date set for the tournament and it clearly says that the tournament should be played in one day (starting Thursday 1st March). TG failed to do so even if they were asked to bring on a new player, with a lot of players in their channel there was not a problem finding a replacement for their disconnected player. IFK clearly stated that if the game is not started within a fair deadline, IFK have no time to finish the game - considering it is after 00:00 and people might have a job to look after. Not everyone got time to wait more than 15 minutes in the middle of the night on a weekday because of one disconnected player. A fair deadline was given for TG to bring on another player, but TG failed to provide one. Assuming TG wanted to wait for their disconnected player to come back (when a new player could have been brought on) instead of respecting that opponents might not want to wait for more than 15 minutes in the middle of the night to finish a game of haxball.

As for my personal opinion, that itself lacks respect to other players and their time's. However I personally could have overseen it if it was not in the middle of the night.

Back to objective glasses. TG received the win of the funcup suddenly without any foundation in the rules. There was no deadline set, there was no game time set. One cannot take decisions seriously when the stated rules are not followed, but making up new ones is okay. It has happened before that rules are ignored, however new ones (that overrides previously stated rules) are invented on the fly.

As for the game itself. I had no problem at all playing it later. I am not a rule rider per say and would have accepted playing it later even if, strictly speaking, the case is clear cut in who was the winner. Hence I understand that some players in IFK might not have wanted to play at a later stage. But then again, how fun is it deciding a haxball game on someone's desk - I personally do not enjoy that.

And to just address the claim that was made about jasko's team mates being contacted about the game - no murris, I have not been contacted even once. I was not even aware, until now, that anyone else got contacted either. So that statement is, excuse me for the language, true bullshit.

I rarely comment on anything, but when I do it is because something fundamentally is wrong. To look somewhat professional I would advise you to be more transparent and actually follow the statements and rules set up, or why even have them at all? And if you decide to make up new rules on the fly, at least be transparent. In this case a thread with a match date could at least have been provided if it was decided to override the previously stated rules. I do not think making up new rules without transparency is a reasonable, and I honestly believe no one in the admin team believes that either.

And questions to muris about the above statements :

1) What does it mean then? Please elaborate.
2) Nobody claimed it is your fault, it was just a fact that they blew their identity themselves.
3) Sure you can have your definition of team mates, but I can honestly say I never got to know of this personally or that anyone even got asked.
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby Muris 9 » March 11th, 2018, 7:47 pm

It is not the first time that a one-night-cup ends like at 1 AM or something like that, or the final just gets postponed because one of the teams can't play (it has happened several times).
I have talked to jasko and naho, maybe someone else in the channel.. can't remember right now, but they both said that none wanted to play the match (even after I asked them some more than once). I didn't know that you wanted to play the game, but well that's just what your teammates said so ask them maybe (?)
No one is saying it's our fault.. well that's not what it looks like :D
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby anglo » March 11th, 2018, 8:13 pm

I don't believe you fully understood my previous post. Please read it again and stop being smug, it is not gaining anyone. And the list of answers (1-3) were answers to your statements, you did not realize that since you were responding on something completely else. You did not answer my question either, please do that.

However to address your last message. Do you realize how contradictory it sounds, I should ask my team mates how they answered to a question I was not aware of?
You are also stating fun-cups matches have been played other days, okay. So that makes it legitimate to suddenly decide the outcome with on the fly rules?
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby Muris 9 » March 11th, 2018, 8:27 pm

I was answering back to you.. 1 night cup doesn't mean it must finish at 00.00, it can go on for a while since there are some games that usually take some more time to play, especially in a cup like this.
You can ask them why they didn't want to play, instead of asking explainations here. That's what I meant.
It's not fly rules, your team left and did never want to play the final.. that's pretty simple
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby Herna » March 11th, 2018, 8:37 pm

In future 1 night cups should always finish on one day please :) and lets give teams some kind of deadlines to play their matches, if we wait 30 mins for one game to finish then just give one or both a defloss, rather that than having 8 teams waiting forever.

My team waited in this cup for 2 hours to play the round of 16, it was also because we had a defwin and a group of 4 while others had 5, still 1 hour is the max a team should have to wait in that case, its a hard cup to organise but still this is really important!

after 2 hours my team was so tired, noone really wanted to play anymore and we obviously lost against an opponent we could have won against normally!

Just for the future though, else its not really fun to play these cups i think.
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby anglo » March 11th, 2018, 8:56 pm

Muris 9 wrote:I was answering back to you.. 1 night cup doesn't mean it must finish at 00.00, it can go on for a while since there are some games that usually take some more time to play, especially in a cup like this.
You can ask them why they didn't want to play, instead of asking explainations here. That's what I meant.
It's not fly rules, your team left and did never want to play the final.. that's pretty simple


I can ask IFK why they did not want to play, and as I stated above I know why and I can understand the reasoning. But that would not explain why an admin out of the box decided the outcome of a game without any foundation.

Moreover, you are only tying yourself tighter. Following your reasoning, an unbeatable strategy would simply be to keep one player disconnected and let the game be paused until the opponents get tired of waiting to finally collect the win with the argument "your team left".
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby Muris 9 » March 11th, 2018, 9:46 pm

What would you do if you saw 4 people leaving at 00.00 instead of playing a final, and repeatedly refusing to play it in the following days, using the late time or some shit rules as an excuse? Those 15 minutes of game would have surely killed your next day performance.. I was afk during the final, and when I came back I just saw 3 of you leaving the room while TG had 4 players in, but whatever. You should organize next cups maybe, it seems you always know the right thing to do and probably we need that, so I won't waste hours and hours of my time either
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby jalapeno » March 11th, 2018, 9:58 pm

Muris 9 wrote:2 - I didn't say anyone's identity, if falk and his team can't keep their mouth shut for 15 minutes and must let everyone discover which their team is, then that is not my problem/fault
3 - I've asked you to play at least 5 times, not only you but also your team mates, and you've refused every single time.. so don't complain now :)


The whole point of the cup was HIDDEN NAMES. They didnt keep their names hidden.
Why would we play the game later if our opponents disregarded the point of the cup? It took away the fun for us.

We do not participate in a 3v3 cup to be forced playing the finals 1v1 strongball.
We do not participate in a HIDDEN NAMES cup to be forced playing the finals with revealed names.

You should give us fairplay award for taking defwin. We sacrifice our reputation to uphold the authenticity of this community.

If the admins doesnt even respect the cup, who else will?
Maybe it is more fun to take things unserious and troll, but at a certain point somebody has to set a stop to it.
Otherwise if everyone just keeps ignoring the rules; eventually the very small amount of prestige that remains in winning things in this game will completely vanish.

We take defwin on behalf of this community.
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby jasko » March 11th, 2018, 10:16 pm

It is not the first time that a one-night-cup ends like at 1 AM or something like that, or the final just gets postponed because one of the teams can't play (it has happened several times).


When we finished with group stage after 1 hour and had to wait another almost 2 hours just to find out who our opponent is we asked to play another day because we didn't have 4 players at the time, but now there's a made up rule that it can be postponed.

your team left and did never want to play the final.. that's pretty simple


The match was streamed, we joined the room, started the match, their player disconnected, they had a few more that could easily sub him, they decided to wait for him even though we said we can only wait until 0:00... And obviously after our identity was carelessly given away there is no reason anymore to play the game.

To me it just seems that the staff favors better teams on paper, but I really don't want to personally attack/offend or throw fault at anyone.
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby anglo » March 11th, 2018, 10:40 pm

Muris 9 wrote:You should organize next cups maybe, it seems you always know the right thing to do and probably we need that, so I won't waste hours and hours of my time either


Please don't drag in subjective things, it is a difference between criticizing this decision and criticizing the person making the decision. I made that distinction from the start.

anglo wrote:First of all I would like to say this is not a personal attack on anyone, I appreciate that the admins are spending so much time making haxball a better game. It is rather a text about the decision itself, no matter who made it.


Let's discuss the matter instead of getting into some defensive/attacking mindset.

Muris 9 wrote:What would you do if you saw 4 people leaving at 00.00 instead of playing a final, and repeatedly refusing to play it in the following days, using the late time or some shit rules as an excuse? Those 15 minutes of game would have surely killed your next day performance


We already waited (in game) 15 minutes in the middle of the night for the opponent's player to come back online from being disconnected, when there were several players to use as substitutes from their channel. Who knows for how much longer we'll have to wait? And yes, some people have work and other things to take care of and cannot be sitting up all night for somebody to come online - that is the ugly reality. Fine if the opponents had NO other player to use, but as it turned out they had several in their channel making it slightly disrespectful.

Referring to your own stated rules as "some shit rules", well the rules are there for a reason right? Else there is no point in stating them in the first place, that is counterproductive. And I realize it is not an easy situation to handle as an admin, but the rules are the foundation which ought to provide answers in case of a dispute - that is when they are needed. They are equal to everybody and hence make things fair. I realize you cannot always incorporate everything, however in this case there was actually a rule in the post - and I would primarily use that for foundation to a decision. I understand that you sometimes have to make on fly decisions, but making one without taking your previous rule statements into account is not adequate because that will make people think they can bend the rules as they please.
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby Muris 9 » March 11th, 2018, 10:57 pm

If you can't really live without respecting the rules, let's anylize them. So basically it's said that a team doesn't have to reveal their identity, but not that they would be punished with a deflose if they do so (like for example in 3def, where it is said clearly that violating the rule could lead to a defloss). There was no rule saying that they had a certain amount of time to find a player(many of those in their channel played for other teams, TG channel is always full) and idk if the match started or not, but if it did start before the rq it would have actually started on the same day so it can't be judged as 2nd day (not sure if the match started at all or not).
I'm not attacking you or defending myself, I don't need to.. and I'm not prioritising them jasko otherwise I wouldn't have asked you to play.. I don't really care if they are stronger or not, but if we talk in terms of rules they did break one yes, but like I said before it's not specified it has to be punished with a defloss..
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby ATuntija » March 11th, 2018, 11:00 pm

I wasn't in the teamspeak on the day this cup took place so I personally can't say much about what happened during that evening. However, based on the posts that IFK players have written here now, it's obvious that there has been a way long break between group stage and knock-out stage. We are aware of the fact that some teams can't manage to finish their group stage matches fast enough for whatever reasons they have. This is a big problem for the cup itself, as it's supposed to be a funcup. It's not real fun to first finish your group stage matches in time and then wait for longer time before next round starts.

This is why we, as an organizing team, should pay more attention and set time limits for group stage matches. Like Herna wrote above, maybe there should be deflosses if a team fails to finish their group stage matches in time. Of course it's not fun either but it might be the only way to keep the schedule of the cup within the reasonable limits.

In this cup, there were the time limits set up to the rules (Fixture 1: 20:00 - 20:30 CET, Fixture 2: 20:30 - 21:00 CET, Fixture 3: 21:00 - 21:30 CET) but I guess these were not followed that strictly on this cup.

The other point that has been brought up is the way the cup eventually ended. For this case, I can't personally commentate anything as I wasn't there and I don't know all the facts. But I'm sure if the time limits would have been set and also followed we would have avoided all this.


Therefore, for the upcoming funcups that are meant to play during the one evening, I would suggest that there will be time limits for group stage matches and if the team is failed to finish their matches withing the time limit, deflosses will be given. The main thing is that knock-out stage would actually start at the time that it's been informed. For the knock-out stage matches there is possibility for overtime which will always postpone the next round matches.

By setting the time limits also for the KO-stage matches (for example R16 @21:30, QF @22:00, SF @22:30, F @23:00) it should be possible for all the participating teams to finish the cup during the one evening. Playing the final at 00:00cet (or even later) really takes all the fun part away from the cup.


Last but not least, we all should also bear in minds that Muris is mainly organizing these funcups alone. All those, who have been organizing cups like this surely must know that it's not easy to do everything by yourself. So we must also give credits for Muris. Without taking any sides here (whether Muris did right or wrong concerning this funcup), we must remember that we might not have any funcups held here in FeedMe at the moment if he wasn't organizing them.
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby anglo » March 11th, 2018, 11:21 pm

ATuntija wrote:Last but not least, we all should also bear in minds that Muris is mainly organizing these funcups alone. All those, who have been organizing cups like this surely must know that it's not easy to do everything by yourself. So we must also give credits for Muris. Without taking any sides here (whether Muris did right or wrong concerning this funcup), we must remember that we might not have any funcups held here in FeedMe at the moment if he wasn't organizing them.


Absolutely, it requires more work than one would think and I believe everybody are appreciating the effort to make something good. Good job Muris!
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby jalapeno » March 12th, 2018, 12:17 am

Muris 9 wrote:If you can't really live without respecting the rules, let's anylize them. So basically it's said that a team doesn't have to reveal their identity, but not that they would be punished with a deflose if they do so (like for example in 3def, where it is said clearly that violating the rule could lead to a defloss). There was no rule saying that they had a certain amount of time to find a player(many of those in their channel played for other teams, TG channel is always full) and idk if the match started or not, but if it did start before the rq it would have actually started on the same day so it can't be judged as 2nd day (not sure if the match started at all or not).
I'm not attacking you or defending myself, I don't need to.. and I'm not prioritising them jasko otherwise I wouldn't have asked you to play.. I don't really care if they are stronger or not, but if we talk in terms of rules they did break one yes, but like I said before it's not specified it has to be punished with a defloss..


We cant live without respecting the rules? Why do you bend our words to this childish nonsense?

Lets use this example to illustrate the logic that you are trying to prove:
Picture the 1v1 fun cup that you are hosting. I join; but instead of just me playing I bring 10 other people and play 10v1. You are saying that I wouldnt get a deflose because it isnt specified in the rules as an implication of the rule-breaking.

You could think that the cup name gave some sort of clue on how the cup was supposed to be played, but I guess not? :scratch:
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby Vidalo » March 12th, 2018, 12:31 am

:popcorn:
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby socrates » March 12th, 2018, 10:37 am

I think its difficult decision for muris. If TG had defloss then they would also think its unfair as its normal to have players leave when funcup last that long.

Blame the team that held up funcup for everyone by stopping to play a league match mid-way through. Not even sure if muris knew about this but the opponents should have said defwin for this match in order not to delay whole tournament.

Also we shouldn't have groups of 5 teams if it is a 1-day cup. Usually we struggle already to finish in 1day if its groups of 4.

I like limiting match times in funcup - would help I think.

Maybe we could add a rule in future where your team gets +2 goals if you guess opponents correctly or something. To punish teams that don't keep themselves hidden.
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Re: Season 21 - Hidden Names Winter Cup

Postby jalapeno » March 12th, 2018, 10:34 pm

socrates wrote:I think its difficult decision for muris. If TG had defloss then they would also think its unfair as its normal to have players leave when funcup last that long.



How would it be unfair to TG? You shouldnt assume that TG are stupid, they are nice people. :)
They just like to troll a lot sometimes.

It wouldnt make any sense for them to protest against a defloss when they didnt even bother to follow the format of the cup (hidden names). It is their fault that the game couldnt be played like it was supposed to.
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