3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

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3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby Kivi » October 5th, 2017, 9:31 pm

Good evening guys,

you're probably in mind what happened between TPP and QS.

A few 4def violations were made (small touches which were not heavy but still not allowed). In my opinion, the rules are not clear and defined enough to use them on actual cases. In addition, they contradict themself. That's what it shouldn't be, because it brings anger and wrong decisions like in this case.

I'd like to quote one sentence from the stream:
The captain takes the responsibility for himself and the team.


Let me counter that. You take the responsibility to lead the league in a neutral way. You take the responsibility to create rules which are transparent and incontrovertibly.

This is the actual rule for 3def + the picture.

2.5 The ST cannot intervene (attack, block, touch, be in front of) the DM at the left side of the RED AREA. You can intervene when the DM loses the ball or cannot keep control of the ball in the RED AREA. Also you are allowed to intervene when Team BLUE cannot keep ball under possession (which happened in the screen above because there was no way for him to actually make a pass!).If the ball gets to the right side of the RED AREA the ST is allowed to intervene and 3-def-rule won't be applied anymore. (which happened in most of the touches) In this case it won't matter if team BLUE has possession.

Image

If you take this rule beside you watching the demo, you'll see that the only thing I did was playing like the rules told me it was allowed to (except a few violations like I admit which are around ~5, still not heavily.

A few additional quotes at this place:
Yawn: The rulebook isn’t precise and it leaves room for everyone to interpret the rules however they want.
/// The ball is inside the attacking zone and you intercepted it, 4def for sure in HCL, but because of the vague terms within the FM rulebook, you might get away with it (as the print you referred to earlier somewhere; rule 2.5)

Maddude: This zone thing is bull anyway really and there's so much grey area over 4def.

B4D4SS: idk why the game being 2D makes any difference, but admins should enforce rules if they wna stop 3def violations

TehBeast: Originally the 3 def rule was designed to prevent players from 'obvious' 4 deffing. Nowadays it seems like some strikers try to find the limit to where their actions are considered as 4 deffing. This brings up the discussion of where the limit when 3 deffing becomes 4 deffing is. It's imppssible to include very seperate situation in the rulebook which gives us two options: make the rules more specific (e.g. the ST is not allowed to touch the DM at all when the opponents are in attack) with clear consequences for players who violate the rule. The second option is to proceed with these rules and we stop complaining over every small incident.


THE POSSIBLE RULE CHANGE:

I'd like to push through a rule change which looks like this:

Image

It is basically as clear stated as it possibly could be and there is no room of discussion in this one. If you rewatch the stream match, then you'll notice that I was playing to this rules this time and there were no complains.


Last words:

In the end, it's your decision what you're gonna do. It's not only my opinion that the rules are poorly written and it only needed one actual case to question the rules. Those are not up2date and not at the actual 2017 standard. If you're too proud and too stubborn, then keep the rules you have. You're gonna get a problem sooner or later and you're gonna stand in front of a decision you've to make where the clearly better team over 10 minutes might get a deflos which is going to ruin their chances of championship. If you call this "fair", then I'm never going to understand how you're able to sleep in peace.
QuickSwans should not get a defloss for poorly written rules and you shouldn't punish people just because they actually read the rulebook no one gives a fuck about. Take it as a opportunity to improve the current rules with the idea given above from myself and remove this defloss. Take this opportunity to keep the league competitively with clear rules.

Sincerely

Kivi the actual rulebook reader.
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby socrates » October 5th, 2017, 9:52 pm

Kivi wrote:A few 4def violations were made (small touches which were not heavy but still not allowed).

you'll see that the only thing I did was playing like the rules told me it was allowed to (except a few violations like I admit which are around ~5, still not heavily.


That's why you get defloss imo - you can accidentally 4 def once or twice maybe but 5 times is too much (and arguably it was more than 5).

Idk maybe rule changes could help but 99% of ST here manage to understand them fine already and I don't really see many complaints about 4 def usually in league matches.
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby StringerBell » October 5th, 2017, 9:54 pm

TLDR: Kivi can't comprehend the rules despite having played over half a century, repeatedly cheats during a game which gives them the advantage in what could easily have been a win for TPP if not for 15 rule violations, then, due to a severe feeling of entitlement thinks the rules should be rewritten just to fit his ridiculous and delusional narrative.
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby Kivi » October 5th, 2017, 10:06 pm

StringerBell wrote:TLDR: Kivi can't comprehend the rules despite having played over half a century, repeatedly cheats during a game which gives them the advantage in what could easily have been a win for TPP if not for 15 rule violations, then, due to a severe feeling of entitlement thinks the rules should be rewritten just to fit his ridiculous and delusional narrative.


Do you even believe your own words? I can't believe that you're so happy with that undeserved win.
socrates wrote:
Kivi wrote:A few 4def violations were made (small touches which were not heavy but still not allowed).

you'll see that the only thing I did was playing like the rules told me it was allowed to (except a few violations like I admit which are around ~5, still not heavily.


That's why you get defloss imo - you can accidentally 4 def once or twice maybe but 5 times is too much (and arguably it was more than 5).

Idk maybe rule changes could help but 99% of ST here manage to understand them fine already and I don't really see many complaints about 4 def usually in league matches.


And thats the point which is not right. Rules are poorly written and not clear, too much room for interpretation. Those 5 violations were not heavily (only 1) and it was not more than 5 (if you go by FM rules!)
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby StringerBell » October 5th, 2017, 10:14 pm

Kivi, how can you even call it an undeserved win? We had three big chances, you had maybe 4-5 big chances where atleast two of them came from a rule violation, plus the general play was changed in your favor because you constantly defended with 4.
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby Kivi » October 5th, 2017, 10:30 pm

StringerBell wrote:Kivi, how can you even call it an undeserved win? We had three big chances, you had maybe 4-5 big chances where atleast two of them came from a rule violation, plus the general play was changed in your favor because you constantly defended with 4.


It is NOT deserved. We were 10 minutes in attack, if you claim it was deserved then you're only delusional to yourself. Still, not going to discuss with someone who is as delusional as you anymore. Have fun, I'm gonna ignore your posts.
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby Ron » October 6th, 2017, 3:06 am

Hi,

this seems like fun topic, so why not get involved into it. FM rulebook was always a joke and this special 3def rule created confusion over the seasons, and admins were too busy to change - ok case closed. To watch this replay - I had to download some new browser to open it (omfg), but I got a lot of laugh what is happening in todays haxball and why are people punished in general. This 3def protest is stupidest protest since Edinson Cavani's 234035823 protests in HCL accusing some players for macro (OH EDI YOU ARE IN HERE AGAIN :D) but it is fun!

Considering FM Rulebook:
StringerBell wrote:-0.30
-1.26
-around 3.35 (4 defenders)
-4.22 (blocking cavani, hence helping the defending, inside red line, this also created a big chance)
-5.22, 5.24
-7.17 (same as 4.22 - blocking nestro, hence helping them defend, in what appears to be inside the red line)
-10.05/10.06
-10.17 (again blocking dm in defense, hence helping to defend)
-11.21
-14.50
-15.19
-15.29
-15.31
-15.35
-16.17 (very big one)


Honestly, if you see 3def fails in all of these situations, you should check rulebook again or visit an eye doctor. Yes, Kivi is type of striker who is fucking annoying for DM, and probably if i was on place of Nestro / Edi, I would get irritated as well, but he isn't doing this fails, he is using this rule , just little below the edge. Probably 1.26 is a fail since he is directly closing the angle for DM to pass to his attacker and therefore making serious attack impossible, but all other situations are not considered as 3def rule violations in my opinion.

MrP wrote:The match Quickswans vs. Trailer Park Penguins will be rated as defwin for Trailer Park Penguins.
- QuickSwans broke rule 2.5 (3def) several times.
- They continued also after ingame protest of opponent team.
- Official warning for QuickSwans to take care about 3def better in future matches.


Well no wonder, mrp announced it, feed me rulebook was always a joke and admin decisions were even worse since seasons. The blame is on players who are accepting this bullshit. But ye guys, you have perfect website and few smart programmers making it all possible, GJ to them! Sadly this admin team (respect to ones who deserve it) is surely the opposite and this decisions are not wondering me any more.

PFF THIS WAS BORING AT THE END

Feel free to check league1 / hcl 3def rule and learn something.

BB FREE KIVI
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby socrates » October 6th, 2017, 8:09 am

Ron, everyone knows you hate FM and its admins but why do need to come and comment on every admin decision? You don't see mrp or hannes coming to flame on any of your HCL or NC forums.

If you hate FM and hate admins then please stop coming here.

As for the decision being wrong - kivi even admitted himself that he broke rule 5 times...5 times is not acceptable...
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby StringerBell » October 6th, 2017, 9:25 am

This is funny because Ron will complain no matter what admins decide
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby EdinsonCavani » October 6th, 2017, 9:48 am

Yes 3def update in 2017 :fp: .... following your 2k17 logic Dm should play near forwards spamming and not having space for playing/turning the ball, so teams like Silas, Hellhounds, PdN, AoD wouldn't have been existed :silent: . Anyway if you want to defend you can play Am, but if you play ST just let the other teams play in normal conditions :roll:

Ps I extimate feedme staff team cause it's composed by mature and funny people and their league is the longer-lived league, I just warned Kivi cause he had a wrong interpretation of 3def, then if he will continue I don't really care :no: , I'm not playing his league/division (take it like an advise by a friend)

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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby CMPUNK » October 6th, 2017, 9:58 am

Ron only comments because he cares!!!
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby Kivi » October 6th, 2017, 4:11 pm

socrates wrote:Ron, everyone knows you hate FM and its admins but why do need to come and comment on every admin decision? You don't see mrp or hannes coming to flame on any of your HCL or NC forums.

If you hate FM and hate admins then please stop coming here.

As for the decision being wrong - kivi even admitted himself that he broke rule 5 times...5 times is not acceptable...


Even if I say it to you millions of times. NO. MAJOR. INFLUENCES. When will you get that?
Why can you not accept that your current rules are a joke? I do not even mean it in an offensive way. Just make it up2date and stop punishing people / teams just because they use the rules for themself.

As I mentioned in my main post, if the admins think that the captain should he responsible for the teammates fails then the admins should be responsible as well for not updating the rules to the 2017 standard -> teams should not be punished for it.

FM might be the oldest league right now and it has been leaded successfully till now, but it should not stop improving here.
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby ATuntija » October 6th, 2017, 6:01 pm

Kivi wrote:I'd like to push through a rule change which looks like this:

Image

It is basically as clear stated as it possibly could be and there is no room of discussion in this one. If you rewatch the stream match, then you'll notice that I was playing to this rules this time and there were no complains.


So basically you would like to bring here a rule that suits you better? :fp:

Or is that rule you described in the picture above your own? Or is it used in some league at the moment?
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby Kivi » October 6th, 2017, 6:21 pm

ATuntija wrote:
Kivi wrote:I'd like to push through a rule change which looks like this:

Image

It is basically as clear stated as it possibly could be and there is no room of discussion in this one. If you rewatch the stream match, then you'll notice that I was playing to this rules this time and there were no complains.


So basically you would like to bring here a rule that suits you better? :fp:

Or is that rule you described in the picture above your own? Or is it used in some league at the moment?


That's basically Fritz's and HCL rule book picture with added explanation from me.

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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby ATuntija » October 6th, 2017, 6:55 pm

Kivi wrote:That's basically Fritz's and HCL rule book picture with added explanation from me.

[img]http%20://i.epvpimg.com/JgBsdab.png[/img]


I know it's from there and it was used both in HCL and League1.

But with that explanation you added there the 3def rule actually changes quite a lot. This makes me wondering if you've never complained about that rule in HCL or League1? And if you haven't , may I ask why not?
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby Kivi » October 6th, 2017, 7:44 pm

I haven't and there are a few several reasons for that.

Dynamic zone:
It gives DM and the ST the freedom they need. I can apply pressure as the ST by staying close to him because the end of the DM's model defines the dynamic zone. If I touch him in the zone, it is going to be clear 4def and in addition, the dynamic zone is small so there is not much room of failure. In the actual rule, I'm allowed to touch the DM in the red area which is ridiculous (read 2.5 rule's first sentence).

Bodyblock:
I think bodyblock as the ST is the new big thing. I've seen turkish players bringing it even to the next level by juking bodyblocks with body fakes. A ST who does bodyblock should stop somewhere in the dynamic zone to bodyblock.

Clear averaged interception zone:
I've talked with a lot of people about that. The FM rulebook picture favors far more the ST. If you take a look and open a room and actually look where the "red area" starts you'll see that this is actually dogshit. I can't find a word to say that in a positive way tbh. Another good striker told me that he doesn't even try to intercept as early as possible because people complain every single time. He takes the edge of the middle circle (left/right side) and intercepts when the model is at the edge of the circle which is by FAR too late in a high level competitive environment.
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby ATuntija » October 6th, 2017, 9:01 pm

Fair enough, thanks for the explanation :thumbup:
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby TehBeast » October 6th, 2017, 10:25 pm

I think you're making this into a bigger problem than it really is.. Just one incident in a long time shouldn't drastically change the rules of how the community has been playing for years. I guess you could say 3 def violation is sometimes part of the game (even though it's annoying and ideally shouldn't happen).
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby Herna » October 7th, 2017, 9:26 am

Everyone knows the rules are written badly and need an update, but i think back when they were made they were the most accurate attempt to describe what 3def should be.
I remember in YeS that time they just had like two sentences without any explanation, still everyone knew what the rule was like, its kind of the same here in FM for the last years, we never had problems with the rule only once or twice i think in all the time, so noone felt the need to write them better.

When then someone like you comes thinking you know the rule better than anyone else eventhough thats not the case, actively provoking breaking it like the whole match, then you have to live with the consequences. It's yours and your teammmates fault you got a defloss, not admins fault and not the rules fault.

Also for sure not all of the 15 listed times in the protest were violations, but i guess there also were more than even listed there, anyone who doesnt understand the decision should just watch the whole match and it is clear. But even if you say "5 minor violations" thats more than enough, because 3def isnt a rule thats supposed to be ever broken, but where you shall never risk breaking it if you aren't sure you don't violate it. It's obvious clever strikers like you search for the limit of whats possible, that doesnt mean you are allowed to break it just because its minor, especially not in league matches.

And one last thing, you broke the rule no matter if it are the "poorly written" FM-rules, the HCL-rules or whatever 3def rule exists in this world more than enough that it justifies a defloss.

Im sure though that the admins will update the rule soon or latest to next season, but its not like there will be a 3def-revolution, people got used to it and its fun and works fine.
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Re: 3DEF rules - are they actually up2date?

Postby Kivi » October 7th, 2017, 9:54 am

:fp:

Aight, then close that if you seriously think you're right. Still, destroy the competition for bad written rules. That's what makes the competition about.
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