Can we improve 4v4 map?

[socrates]

tl;dr Help me make a better 4v4 map.

Basically I dont really like 3def or Big Easy so I wondered if it would be possible to make a custom map which is more fun.

Problem with 3def is that it is arbitrary rule dictating how the game is played - every game follows a similar format and leads to almost everyone playing similar style and ofc there are sometimes arguments about 3def rule.

Problem with Big Easy is that you often get crowded goal area and maybe a bit too easy to bus. Lots of goals are from spam and too crowded sometimes to have nice passing moves (maybe just cos I suck).

So my suggestions for a better map would be:
- 4v4 without any 3def rule
- Goal size somewhere between Big and Big Easy
- Ball is slightly smaller and slightly faster (no massive changes - still must feel like regular haxball)
- Vertically haxball pitch slightly bigger to increase space.

In my opinion this would maybe help the better passing teams and would make it harder to bus whilst removing the arbitrary 3def rule.

Here is an example of a map I made: http://haxmaps.com/map/7776

Are those changes too much? Are they not enough? Do you have a better idea? Am I wasting my time and no one cares? (Yes)

Maybe if people wanted to try we could do a funcup next week.

[Vak]

Honestly i agree 100% with what you are trying to do. Changing the meta will be hard and a lot of people won't like it but in my opinion after playing all these years without a change on the same pitch i wouldnt mind a different one. However, 3def will have to stay for leagues. It has been like this and will be like this unless you want total mess. The ball changes i dont mind unless they're drastic and the vertical change is fine on the example map too.
In conclusion i feel like this will be a good idea and i wouldnt mind a small change. Thanks for sharing

[LIO]

nice map

[socrates]

Here are the actual changes on the map I made:

Pitch Height: 540pixels > 560 pixels
Goal size: 160 pixels(Big) > 170 pixels
Ball Speed: 105%
Ball Size: 95%

If you want to test this yourself just save the map file and if you open in Notepad++ you can see the values to change fairly easily. Ball Physics is right at the very end.

I would maybe think so far that these changes are not enough?

Default maps: http://blog.haxball.com/post/1392558790 ... hbs-format

[Pringles]

I usually don't answer to this kind of things but this time i had to do it. There are too much problems around 3def even tho it's fun to play because it's the model we play for ages, so i tested this map and really liked it. It would be fun to see some kind of fun cup on this map and see how it goes

[Herna]

Lets do a funcup. I think changing map size and goal size is no problem at all, but the majority is and will keep playing on regular maps aswell, so changing ball speed and ball size even by 5% might be difficult. But lets just try it

[Flash9]

Herna's testicles are now bigger than the ball

[Per]

but where is muris and his fun cups ? He said that will do

[B4D4SS]

I think the biggest impact that can be had with a map change would be from increasing the pitch width (West-East direction) a fair amount so that the midfield battle carries much more importance in the match overall, because I think it is the most tactically difficult part of the game to master as a team of 4 to get full chemistry with. Also individual quality/skill of the players would shine through and be more important with more midfield battles, so increasing the width alone would raise the skill ceiling of the game a fair bit.

I also agree about the goal size being slightly larger but not too much (like you did), but I think just that is enough to make bussing harder than it is already, I mean we see how many goals are scored in Haxball at the moment, even in the HCL final which is the highest level, the score was 2-2 in 20minutes of gametime (5min per goal), so even though scoring vs busses is hard its not impossible or anything. Just increasing the goal size slightly should be enough imo, since changing the physics of the game will make the game feel much different, maybe too much. Then also you would have a harder time integrating pub players, if you wanted this map as a long term and serious thing.

Then increasing the pitch size in Height, my guess would be that it would make breaking down a bus harder, since the North+South walls would be further away from the goal than how it is at the moment, which would weaken the effectiveness of the DM doing wall bounces. Plus even though there would be more space on the sides for the strikers, the bus would just have to stay compact and they wouldn't really be able to do much that far away from the goal except pass around the bus but not really breaking through, since increased distance from the corner to the post would mean the defence has more time to react and fall into position before the ball reaches any danger zones.

[Hannes]

If this could work we only know by trying, so i agree to make a funcup with it.

i always consider huge 5v5 as a possible mode for the future ( probably with a more rigid 4def rule), but i think the funcup we once made wasnt the most popular one.

[Vidalo]

GO TO REAL SOCCER MAP

[socrates]

I think the biggest impact that can be had with a map change would be from increasing the pitch width (West-East direction) a fair amount so that the midfield battle carries much more importance in the match overall, because I think it is the most tactically difficult part of the game to master as a team of 4 to get full chemistry with. Also individual quality/skill of the players would shine through and be more important with more midfield battles, so increasing the width alone would raise the skill ceiling of the game a fair bit.

I also agree about the goal size being slightly larger but not too much (like you did), but I think just that is enough to make bussing harder than it is already, I mean we see how many goals are scored in Haxball at the moment, even in the HCL final which is the highest level, the score was 2-2 in 20minutes of gametime (5min per goal), so even though scoring vs busses is hard its not impossible or anything. Just increasing the goal size slightly should be enough imo, since changing the physics of the game will make the game feel much different, maybe too much. Then also you would have a harder time integrating pub players, if you wanted this map as a long term and serious thing.

Then increasing the pitch size in Height, my guess would be that it would make breaking down a bus harder, since the North+South walls would be further away from the goal than how it is at the moment, which would weaken the effectiveness of the DM doing wall bounces. Plus even though there would be more space on the sides for the strikers, the bus would just have to stay compact and they wouldn't really be able to do much that far away from the goal except pass around the bus but not really breaking through, since increased distance from the corner to the post would mean the defence has more time to react and fall into position before the ball reaches any danger zones.

Hmmm I'm not too sure about increasing width - maybe that could be good. Then even if you manage to clear initially it doesn't mean you can go instantly to attack. I kind of imagine it really badly though where pitch is really long and its kicked upfield while all 8 players run back.

Pitch height only really works with the faster ball really as you need that to try reduce the spam goals off wall.

Most common opinion so far seems to be not to change the ball physics. Problem then is that with the ball the same then all we are really doing is changing goal size by such a small amount. Its basically big easy with smaller goals which isn't good for anybody.

If anyone has any other ideas or can modify maps themselves that would be great and we can test that.

[jasko]

GO TO REAL SOCCER MAP

+1 if u want to include more passing style and have more attractive matches - play RS. Changing the physics of the ball doesn't make sense imo, but making the map itself and goals wider, tho, now that isn't a bad idea.

[Maddude]

If this could work we only know by trying, so i agree to make a funcup with it.

i always consider huge 5v5 as a possible mode for the future ( probably with a more rigid 4def rule), but i think the funcup we once made wasnt the most popular one.

Huge is too wide + height of a map really, just years to get to the other side.

[Lyreco]

Alrite soc m8
nice map

[socrates]

We are running a funcup for this map on Wednesday 11th at 20CET.

Message me or Muris on teamspeak to register!

[Mamba]

It would still be same bus with 4 gks in a bit smaller goal than Big Easy, not a new meta.

[socrates]

It would still be same bus with 4 gks in a bit smaller goal than Big Easy, not a new meta.

Yes of course it will still be 4def in the same style as big easy. The idea is to make it a bit easier for quick passing teams to break that bus down. Hopefully that would encourage teams not to sit back so much as it would be harder to keep a clean sheet like that.

Of course it could have the opposite effect where the ball becomes easier to clear and the bussing team find it easier to score goals on the counter attack.

Thats why we are testing to see what people think - if it sucks then np.

[jalapeno]

Spoiler: Show

In finnish league they made bigger goals and smaller ball because they wanted more goals. The result was even less goals because everyone focused even more on camping and none passed because mistakes got punished fast.
But maybe things would be way different here with more skilled players and smaller changes hehe.

I dont like the idea of changing ball speed or size, it wont fell authentic. Making the goals bigger will probably result in players just kicking the ball inside the mess and spamming, like its big easy. Making the field bigger will make the gameplay slower and even easier to read.

But its always nice to try new ideas like this soc.

Another idea that could maybe be interesting is:
Make the normal big map shorter >-----<
4v4, 3def, but the ST cant go past halfway line.

Maybe things would become more action packed and there wouldn't be any confusion with the def rule.

We could just draw a 3def line in the normal map, but it wouldn't make things much better. The mid-field is currently not very exciting anyway and the STs jobs is just to spam the ball to the corner.

[Soul]

We are running a funcup for this map on Wednesday 11th at 20CET.

Message me or Muris on teamspeak to register!

not best timing, nations cup just started..