Yet another extrapolation topic

[LaggerMet]

I don't think basro is going to reduce or even remove extrapolation from the game as i read Anddy's github post. So i don't see reason of spamming on this thread again even tho it is not the first post being made. I guess we have to continue using it and of course there will be people abusing it, it's just part of the game.

but it IS possible to show (near the ping for example) how much extrapolation to use and enforce it in a game. some1 just need to offer this idea to basro. Not that I think he will implement it.
Either way I agree with the post but i think rather than 10 extrapolation we should use a limit of 10-20 maybe 30 because extrapolation has an intended, needed uses in the 10-30 range and its not really possible to abuse this low extrapolation

[B4D4SS]

but it IS possible to show (near the ping for example) how much extrapolation to use and enforce it in a game. some1 just need to offer this idea to basro. Not that I think he will implement it.
Either way I agree with the post but i think rather than 10 extrapolation we should use a limit of 10-20 maybe 30 because extrapolation has an intended, needed uses in the 10-30 range and its not really possible to abuse this low extrapolation

I tried asking him for the old Flash physics with heavier movement, to remove extrapolation and then finally I asked him to at least show extrapolation numbers like ping (so leagues can have their own rules). To all 3 requests he said he wouldn't do it, because apparently its easy to hack all of these features if he did them. IDK if he just says this to shut us up or if its really impossible to add features that cant be hacked, but thats his claim.

Here's the final thread I made to him asking for the extrapolation number to be shown like ping, you can see his response for yourself:

https://github.com/haxball/haxball-issues/issues/1095

[Allen]

It's a game, everyone should play however they want to play, with extra or without it.

[Mey]

It's a game, everyone should play however they want to play, with extra or without it.

you only say that cause u use 170 extrapolation and still suck

[Mod]

i never used extrapolation and i never will

That explains a lot

[supernatural]

Man... He (basro) always say that these stuff we want is easy to modify by 3rd party tools. Ok, then someone tell him to do stuff just like kickrate. Show me one person that can hack kickrate? You can't. EVEN ME, as a javascript developer I tried it for days, and i end up with nothing in the hand.

Basically, kickrate is serverside. It works like that.

You put the values.
Game sends code to server.
Server streams the some game code based on this values.
And if you have different value than server's one, you get desynchronization (means: even if u see yourself playing, others wont basically you stuck between reality and unreality, if you score its not counted because you just stay in the same position for other players, only you can see you are moving etc. its like u lost your internet connection while playing in your host. the game wont close itself but you still playing except nothing is counted etc).

-----

Right here, we can make same thing for extrapolation too.

I set my extrapolation to 130.
Game send my extrapolation value to server.
And server streamed game to me based on my extrapolation value.
And if you dont know, there is a function called onGameTick. Basically checks game every specific milliseconds.
Game will check your current extrapolation, and the one you have sent to server. So if you somehow hacked the client codes and changed it to 160 after setting it to 120, the server will send a command to game and it will revert your extrapolation back to 120, or better you get desynchronization.

This is the only way that can he make unhackable extrapolation feature.

Just throw this to him, he will understand better and it is easy to do since he already did kickrate, its same logic at the end.

Peace!


By saying server/serverside/servers words, i mean whole room. For example when u open kickrate, it applies to everyone. And if u have different kickrate code, you get desynchronization. So extrapolation values can be same like that too. When jasko sets 90 extrapolation, i will know he is playing with 90 extrapolation. And later if he sets something beyond the limit, like 250. Everyone in the room will know he has 250 extrapolation but the limit is 200 so he will get desyncronization. And it is not hackable tho. The current one is hackable, because others wont see your extrapolation value. Make it the way I say, and trust me everything will be different. Including division1 rankings. )

[saviola]

I set my extrapolation to 130.
Game send my extrapolation value to server.
And server streamed game to me based on my extrapolation value.

This is not what happens, the game is changed according to the extrapolation value locally. To keep extrapolation value in check you would have to make sure the client has not been modified, and that is pretty much impossible as far as I know.

[B4D4SS]

Man... He (basro) always say that these stuff we want is easy to modify by 3rd party tools. Ok, then someone tell him to do stuff just like kickrate. Show me one person that can hack kickrate? You can't. EVEN ME, as a javascript developer I tried it for days, and i end up with nothing in the hand.

Basically, kickrate is serverside. It works like that.

You put the values.
Game sends code to server.
Server streams the some game code based on this values.
And if you have different value than server's one, you get desynchronization (means: even if u see yourself playing, others wont basically you stuck between reality and unreality, if you score its not counted because you just stay in the same position for other players, only you can see you are moving etc. its like u lost your internet connection while playing in your host. the game wont close itself but you still playing except nothing is counted etc).

-----

Right here, we can make same thing for extrapolation too.

I set my extrapolation to 130.
Game send my extrapolation value to server.
And server streamed game to me based on my extrapolation value.
And if you dont know, there is a function called onGameTick. Basically checks game every specific milliseconds.
Game will check your current extrapolation, and the one you have sent to server. So if you somehow hacked the client codes and changed it to 160 after setting it to 120, the server will send a command to game and it will revert your extrapolation back to 120, or better you get desynchronization.

This is the only way that can he make unhackable extrapolation feature.

Just throw this to him, he will understand better and it is easy to do since he already did kickrate, its same logic at the end.

Peace!


By saying server/serverside/servers words, i mean whole room. For example when u open kickrate, it applies to everyone. And if u have different kickrate code, you get desynchronization. So extrapolation values can be same like that too. When jasko sets 90 extrapolation, i will know he is playing with 90 extrapolation. And later if he sets something beyond the limit, like 250. Everyone in the room will know he has 250 extrapolation but the limit is 200 so he will get desyncronization. And it is not hackable tho. The current one is hackable, because others wont see your extrapolation value. Make it the way I say, and trust me everything will be different. Including division1 rankings. )

https://github.com/haxball/haxball-issues/issues/1114

[supernatural]

I set my extrapolation to 130.
Game send my extrapolation value to server.
And server streamed game to me based on my extrapolation value.

This is not what happens, the game is changed according to the extrapolation value locally. To keep extrapolation value in check you would have to make sure the client has not been modified, and that is pretty much impossible as far as I know.

Man I am tryhard changing things in the game's source code since day one of html5. Even I am the first guy using this customJs thing. Basically, the thing I said is working. Yes, just like you change extrapolation limits, try to remove kickrate, or modify. Here is the answer before you try, you are denied. Yes, you can't change kickrate because it applies to everyone in the game.

Very very very simple logic of kickrate is:

We have 3 different players called "x, y and z"

x and y doesn't have any modification in the source code. So they play with 6 12 4 kickrate command.
but z modified the code, he just removed or changed some parts of the kickrate and gain some advantage, for example doesn't effected by kick rate limit. So when that happens, z can kick the ball more than 6, but other players can't. Right here z get desynchronization. Because the game are streamed from host and host is x, and he already defined that no one can kick the ball more than 6 times per second. Basically, even if you join some VPS, you use the source code of host. Basically, there is couple values that can give you speedboost in game, i wont reveal which function is doing it, but when you do that and play in your host, you get more speed or acceleration than normal based on how much value you put on it. And others can also use it if they changed the source code and play in your room. I can send you a video if it if you don't believe me.

But with the modified code, with that speed thing, if you join someones room and use their game-min.js or headless-min.js you play like you have 1 fps and you can't use that speed/acceleration bypass just like you did in your room. So that proves when you play, you only use your game-min for local stuff like layers rendering, some commands etc, but everything important that makes you play the game is coming from the game-min.js of the host and compared to your game-min.js while playing it. And if you have different stuff that can change dynamics of the game, pew pew you get desynchronization.

With that being said, kickrate is impossible to remove. Because the "host" forces everyone to play with same values. And then why not making it same for extrapolation?

I set my extrapolation to 200, host get the value and forced me to play with 200. If I change my extrapolation to 210, the host has non modified source code, and his limit is 200, so im supposed to get desyncronization.

Maybe that way you can understand, basro always tell that extrapolation is local feature that affects only you and doesnt have any relation with other players. So I'm here recommending that idea, move this extrapolation thing outside of locally, compare these values every second of the game with host's one and if something is different just kick that guy from room.


Also I want to say that have you ever seen "Bad Actor" kick? Well that's happen when someone has modified client, or something that beyond the limit. Here I will tell you how to achieve this everytime you want.

Go to github, there is a repo called "Hack Style" it's a macro program. Open that java shit and set it to 100 kicks per second. And press your macro key for 2-3 seconds. Bum you will get bad actor kick, only you will see that "connection closed" but you actually get Bad Actor kick. But if you set it to 70 you wont get. Basically thats the limit, even autohotkey can't reach that limit, but that program can. I am pretty sure there is couple faggots using that shit already.

It's because there is couple limits,

ALSO! -->

That thing includes message letter limit. Yes there is a letter limit for the chat at haxball, if you change your game-min.js and let say limit is 30 letter per message, and you sent 31 letter by changing source code, you will get bad actor. Because you use host (some other guy's) game-min.js code when you join some room. So that's the thing I'm telling since beginning, make extrapolation code work like this and let's see if there is single one person that can hack the game.

[saviola]

As you say, the kickrate is something that can be enforced by the server/host. If you disable/change kickrate on your game, your game may show the kick, but the hosts rejects it, and you get desynchronized. That part is correct. It is also true for all "bad actor" kicks: it is like you disable client-side JavaScript form validation on some regristration form, and then you get an error from the server side because those checks you can't fool unless you also change the server side.

However, this cannot be applied to extrapolation, because it is something that happens entirely on the client. It's like you modify your client to show an aim-line or something. There's no way to detect that by the host, because it's only local. And the same is true for extrapolation. Extrapolation does not change anything on the host. Every player can have different extrapolation values and the host would never be able to tell.

That is, if extrapolation is implemented and works in the way that Basro has stated. The fact that extrapolation seems to give people an advantage tells me that Basro may have overlooked some side-effect of the implementation, or there is some other problem with it.

[supernatural]

I agree you on soıme points.

I agree you on some points. But there is some thing I want to show privately and that way you can understand me better. Soon, I will hit you up from Basro's IRC channel.

[GirlontaR]

I agree you on soıme points.

Soon, I will hit you up from Basro's IRC channel.

Now that's something i haven't heard in years

[LaggerMet]

Man... He (basro) always say that these stuff we want is easy to modify by 3rd party tools. Ok, then someone tell him to do stuff just like kickrate. Show me one person that can hack kickrate? You can't. EVEN ME, as a javascript developer I tried it for days, and i end up with nothing in the hand.

Basically, kickrate is serverside. It works like that.

You put the values.
Game sends code to server.
Server streams the some game code based on this values.
And if you have different value than server's one, you get desynchronization (means: even if u see yourself playing, others wont basically you stuck between reality and unreality, if you score its not counted because you just stay in the same position for other players, only you can see you are moving etc. its like u lost your internet connection while playing in your host. the game wont close itself but you still playing except nothing is counted etc).

-----

Right here, we can make same thing for extrapolation too.

I set my extrapolation to 130.
Game send my extrapolation value to server.
And server streamed game to me based on my extrapolation value.
And if you dont know, there is a function called onGameTick. Basically checks game every specific milliseconds.
Game will check your current extrapolation, and the one you have sent to server. So if you somehow hacked the client codes and changed it to 160 after setting it to 120, the server will send a command to game and it will revert your extrapolation back to 120, or better you get desynchronization.

This is the only way that can he make unhackable extrapolation feature.

Just throw this to him, he will understand better and it is easy to do since he already did kickrate, its same logic at the end.

Peace!


By saying server/serverside/servers words, i mean whole room. For example when u open kickrate, it applies to everyone. And if u have different kickrate code, you get desynchronization. So extrapolation values can be same like that too. When jasko sets 90 extrapolation, i will know he is playing with 90 extrapolation. And later if he sets something beyond the limit, like 250. Everyone in the room will know he has 250 extrapolation but the limit is 200 so he will get desyncronization. And it is not hackable tho. The current one is hackable, because others wont see your extrapolation value. Make it the way I say, and trust me everything will be different. Including division1 rankings. )

the difference is that extrapolation doesnt need to involve the server. you can send the server that you are using 0 extrapolation but what your browser actually renders can have nothing to do with it. It is not the same as kick rate limit, because the kicks actually change the game state and so the server can detect weird behavior.

[Allen]

It's a game, everyone should play however they want to play, with extra or without it.

you only say that cause u use 170 extrapolation and still suck

i would agree if you wouldn't ask me to join your team every two days

[Allen]

I think the only solution we as a haxball community have to the extrapolation thing is to ask pedy's team to give up on their salary for a month and hire basro to fix his own game, any truers? (might need to give up on the Christmas gift cars as well, basro might be expensive)

[P4ER]

I think Allen should be locked in jail.

[ShimShon]

why is Allen sending sexual messages to my sister?

[Allen]

why is Allen sending sexual messages to my sister?

chill bruh she is 11 alrdy let her be

[Adem Ljajić]

Hi,

When i was new player in here, at first i was really bad as gk and my friends are usually played better than me, because i started to play with experienced players.

I felt bad and started to use extrapolation and it was easier to control my character. Then my friends said ' You are playing better. ' ( Mostly i used 100 or 85 )

1-2 seasons ago i think i was more aggressive and i played bravely because i saw the game less but i did more mistakes. I just played randomly, without knowledge.

Last season i started to play with 0 and i felt i learned game again. I think we can control our character more easily if we use extrapolation, but we play without knowledge. Maybe it will work for creativity for some positions especially ST and DM but if you have no chance of mistake you need to use lower extrapolation. I can say that I enjoy now more than past times with 0.

So my point is if there were no extrapolation, everyone would enjoy more.

Of course, monitors and hardware will give you an advantage anyway to see the game better but the game will be more fair but I have no complaints about this because i am not an attack player.

Thanks.

PS : My observations may be right or wrong, I just wrote what I feel.